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johnbrier  
#1 Posted : Monday, July 7, 2014 1:19:28 PM(UTC)
johnbrier

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Hi all, I have a used Whirlpool washer that in the past had a motor coupler go bad which I replaced but this current issue is proving much more difficult. The motor coupler is fine now.

This is a video I recorded of the problem:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgg0ScFsmAg

I originally thought the clutch was the problem based on this site:
How to Know If the Clutch on a Top-Loading Washing Machine Is Broken | Home Guides | SF Gate

By observing the washer from the start of a fresh wash until the problem occurred and comparing what is supposed to happen as described above, I found that the washer agitated and washed, and drained fine, but after that, during the spin cycle, the problem occurred:

The site said "Listen to the washer's spin action, if it can spin at all. Any intermittent slowing of the spin cycle, denoted by a change in motor hum, can indicate a worn or broken clutch."

Mine seemed to be intermittently spinning.. and I had also confirmed the pump wasn't part of the problem after disconnecting it and running it in the spin cycle. I still heard the same noise and saw the same slow spin. So I bought a new clutch and spanner wrench and took it all apart.

Unfortunately it looks like the clutch pads are okay, and I didn't want to use my $44 clutch assembly as a test, because I won't be able to return it afterwards. The brake pads look okay too, and it also seems to function normally, when I turn it counter clockwise, it and the tub spin freely, when I turn it clockwise, it stops. Even more surprisingly, when I turn the transmission input shaft one way, the clutch turns, and when I turn it the other way, the agitator shaft goes back and forth, all just like it should. There did seem to be around 1/8" to maybe 1/4" of play in the shaft coming out of the transmission, which I thought was odd. I first noticed it at one point while turning the input shaft, and I watched the clutch rotate a bit off axis, then I wiggled it and could see the play and determine it was the whole shaft moving back and forth.

Thoughts?


Clutch:
UserPostedImage

Brake:
UserPostedImage
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johnbrier  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, July 9, 2014 8:25:27 AM(UTC)
johnbrier

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I made a lid switch jumper cable so I could watch and record a video of the drivetrain as recommended in another thread:

http://forum.appliancepartspros...d-switch.html#post801262

Quote:
Either way, you need to remove the cabinet and jump out the lid switch so you can observe the clutch during operation. When it is supposed to be spinning but isn't, and the motor is running, check the clutch hub. If it's spinning and the tub isn't, then either the clutch is slipping, there's a problem with the basket drive or the drive block is slipping. If the hub isn't spinning and your sure the motor is running and the motor coupler is good, then the gearcase is bad.
Mine isn't exactly either of those situations. The hub is spinning, but towards the end of the video I made, you can see what is more obvious in person: the hub doesn't seem to be spinning constantly. It seems to start and stop, and I am wondering if the transmission isn't spinning it fast enough for the clutch to fully engage and drive the rest of the drive train. Take a look

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzH9UdhrI1I

Considering that the clutch pads look fine, that could be it.

The only other thing I know to do is to check the temperature of the hub to see if a lot of friction is causing it to heat up as suggested in this video (which he says is indicative of a bad clutch): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q942xn_2VXY

I did lick my finger and touch it several minutes after I recorded my video, and it was very hot. However, if the tranny is never fully engaging the clutch (thus friction).. that would make sense, and it might not be a clutch issue!! I really think this is the transmission. Can anyone confirm or shed additional light?

Edit: I found another post by fairbank56 where they provided a similar, but more detailed troubleshooting method, and it seems to further confirm my theory, because the brake spring is spinning with the clutch whenever it spins fast, and stopping when the clutch stops.

Quote:

Best thing to do is to run the machine with cabinet removed and lid switch bypassed so you can observe what's going on. During spin cycle, if the clutch hub is spinning, then the gearcase is ok. Look up into brake hub. If brake spring is not spinning, then the clutch is slipping. If the brake spring is spinning but basket is not, then it's likely a worn drive block or loose tub nut.
from here: http://forum.appliancepartspros...-install.html#post851026

One other thing to note, the legs in the back of this thing weren't extended, so I think it's never been level since I got it. I am thinking that could explain why the drive coupler broke a while back, due to extra stress from an off balance tub. The transmission should be more robust, but might have just broken due to old age and the extra stress might have brought it to its knees faster. Thoughts on that?

Regardless, assuming I'm right and it's the transmission, which is around $150 to replace, I'm wondering if I should just get a new washer instead. This thing was bought used and is kinda rusty and dirty. I prefer to "reduce, reuse, recycle" instead of buying new things all the time but I'm just not sure. How much could I get a decent simple washer for? New or used?
fairbank56  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, July 9, 2014 5:37:06 PM(UTC)
fairbank56

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Change the settings on your video, it's listed as private, we can't view it.

Eric
johnbrier  
#4 Posted : Thursday, July 10, 2014 5:06:54 AM(UTC)
johnbrier

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Oops. I made both my videos public. Sorry about that and thanks for letting me know.
fairbank56  
#5 Posted : Thursday, July 10, 2014 11:27:52 AM(UTC)
fairbank56

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Sounds like the large plastic spin gear in the transmission is stripped out. You can take the cover off the transmission and inspect it. The gear is right on top and relatively easy to replace if that is the problem. There's no formed gasket for the cover, it's just silicone rubber so you need to use a putty knife to cut through it to take the cover off. Block transmission in horizontal position as the lower half is full of oil.

Whirlpool 285362 Gear and Pinon - AppliancePartsPros.com

Eric
johnbrier  
#6 Posted : Friday, July 11, 2014 7:25:55 PM(UTC)
johnbrier

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Originally Posted by: fairbank56 Go to Quoted Post
Sounds like the large plastic spin gear in the transmission is stripped out. You can take the cover off the transmission and inspect it. The gear is right on top and relatively easy to replace if that is the problem. There's no formed gasket for the cover, it's just silicone rubber so you need to use a putty knife to cut through it to take the cover off. Block transmission in horizontal position as the lower half is full of oil.

Whirlpool 285362 Gear and Pinon - AppliancePartsPros.com

Eric


Before I ordered the parts I wanted to see if that was it. Looks like it was. One half of the spin gear is stripped:

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

I drained the oil. Should I wash it out with a garden hose before I put the new oil in?

UserPostedImage

As for resealing the transmission, I already have some "GE Silicone II White Premium Waterproof Silicone Window/Door/Attic/Basement 3 Hr Rain Ready" silicone. I did just notice it says use by 03/13 with that said, will this work or do I need a more standard silicone?

Finally, I am concerned about what caused this (and perhaps my motor coupler failure a while back). I read in another thread it could be bad brake shoes or something stuck in between the tub and basket. The diagnostic provided to check the brake shoes was to removethe pump and motor and spin the coupler attached to the transmission, if it was hard, that indicated bad brake shoes. I never tried that though and obviously my transmission had other issues.

The other thing is I can't get my basket out. I can move it up and down about 1/4" but it stops almost like there is something else holding it in. I did remove the spanner nut, but it still won't budge. Apparently this is common and due to soap and dirt building up in the drive tube area. One person tried everything and didn't get it to budge until they poured boiling water into it (to melt the soap), which did the trick. I haven't tried that yet. Part of the the process that confuses me is that some say you just need to put a lot of force into it, but I can't because when I lift on the basket the whole transmission, motor and pump come with it.. Its all connected to the suspension which keeps it relatively fluid so lifting it is only as forceful as the gravity acting on those those three components and the speed at which I can jerk it.
fairbank56  
#7 Posted : Saturday, July 12, 2014 5:57:46 AM(UTC)
fairbank56

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The recommended sealant is Loctite 515 Gasket Maker. I would use that or something similar from an auto parts store. Also get some sil-glyde lubricant and place a small dab on the inside vertical surface of the brake drum. That will cure the sticking brakes without having to remove tub to pull basket drive. If you still want to get the tub out, have a couple people lift up on it while you tap the drive block with large drift pin and hammer. If brakes were sticking, that can cause the basket to stop abruptly after spin which is hard on the spin gear and motor coupler.

Eric
johnbrier  
#8 Posted : Monday, July 21, 2014 6:34:48 AM(UTC)
johnbrier

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Thanks, I also checked the parts list for the gear case for my washer and saw that it was Loctite 515. I couldn't get it locally so I ordered it, making sure I got the same size referenced, .20 FL OZ (6 mL), because this was cheaper than larger quantities. Now that I have it here in front of me I don't see how it's going to be enough to cover the case and cover like done in the following video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=...=player_detailpage#t=466

Does this guy use more than necessary, or does the sealer in this little bottle spread out more than I can imagine?

If it's not going to be enough, I'm tempted to go buy a bigger bottle of this
Permatex Anaerobic Gasket Maker (1.69 oz) Part No. 51813, which I can get locally at auto parts stores.

Regarding the syl-glyde on the brake drum, I may try that if I can't get the tub out. My local auto parts store has that stuff too (American Grease Stick Co. LUBRICANT SIL-GLYDE).

As far as getting the tub out, it feels impossible but I've read it just needs a lot of force and/or time and patience to get it out. One person said they poured boiling water in the whole drive tube assembly to get it to loosen, with the theory that it was gunked up with soap, and that warm water would dissolve that. It worked for them but I wondered if that was unwise considering boiling water might remove grease/oil that needed to be in there. Any thoughts on that idea?

Regarding your idea of tapping on the drive block with a large drift pin and hammer while two people lift on the tub, I have a question on that. I have never used a drift pin, but I see some listed here:

Klein Tools - Barrel-Type Drift Pins from Seton.com, Stock items ship TODAY, Custom ships FAST!

UserPostedImage

Do you mean like that? And if so I imagine I would drop it vertically inside the drive block until it stopped and then hammer on the top of the pin, but there is another narrower diameter tube inside/below my drive block, so I don't see how I could do that. What do you mean or what am I missing?

Here is the top part of my drive assembly:

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

FWIW, while it's hard to tell in the pictures, the two tabs from the spin tube both seem to be intact when viewing it in person.

One other question. I read somewhere else that you shouldn't remove the tub while the transmission shaft is not in place (like in my current situation) because the "turbine oil" could get out. Did I remember that right or does that make sense?

In the mean time I am going to replace the spin gear and pinion which I am picking up from a store locally.

Again, thanks for all your help. Do you work for Appliance Parts Pros or do you do this in your free time?
fairbank56  
#9 Posted : Monday, July 21, 2014 7:21:05 AM(UTC)
fairbank56

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Don't put anything down inside the drive block. The idea is to tap on the top surface of the drive block, away from the tabs on the drive tube, while lifting on the tub. The tub has become stuck to the drive block so you are trying to break it loose. Any hard solid object can be used including a socket as long as your not damaging the tabs on the drive tube. The drive block is also stuck to the drive tube but that's generally easy to tap off once the tub is removed. If the tub is completely welded to the drive block, it may not come off. The turbine oil is between the drive tube and center post, not between drive tube and agitator shaft. Just leave the transmission out. If you decide to take the basket drive out for any reason, leave the machine on it's side so the turbine oil does not leak out. Only a couple of teaspoons of that is used. I've never used the very small tube of gasket maker so I don't know if it's enough. I do not work for APP, we are all volunteer tech's here. We just check in periodically and try to help DIY'er's out. We all learn from these forums as there are so many different models out there.

Eric
johnbrier  
#10 Posted : Tuesday, July 22, 2014 11:04:23 AM(UTC)
johnbrier

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Okay, well thank you for helping out. If you have an amazon wish list or something like that I may have to buy you something after this.

I have a new problem that frustrates me and makes me want to just buy a whole new transmission, or wish that I already did. The problem is that after putting in the new spin gear and mating pinion and gasket sealing the case, when I turn the input shaft clockwise a lot, after it eventually starts rotating the clutch, every few turns it will resist more and more until finally I can't turn it at all with my fingers. I noticed something similar when I turned it counter-clockwise, except it didn't seem to get worse and worse that I remember, it just eventually locked up.

To be honest, when I was testing this out with it still open on the vice with the new gears I noticed something similar, though I thought it was because it wasn't closed up: the gear that lays on top of the worm gear at the bottom would regularly push up and out of the threads of the worm gear. I thought that was because the top wasn't on, though, like I said, but now I'm thinking that was a problem in and of itself, which could be causing these other problems.

I looked closely at the worm gear and the gear that goes on top of it and both looked fine. Here are some pictures UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

There is obvious wear on this, which might be more reason to get a whole new gear case (because I can't see that you can even buy the bottom gear and worm gear separately, looks like you have to buy all this: Whirlpool 285515 Bottom and Pinion Gear Case - AppliancePartsPros.com and it's not even available now):

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

EDIT: I went ahead and called a local appliance parts shop about a new gear case. Before you correctly theorized that the spin gear was stripped I was planning on buying it from them. It's in their warehouse now but they're bringing it to the storefront tomorrow if I want to purchase it.

Let me know what you think of my gear case's current behavior, if it's caused by me putting it together wrong (when I first noticed the gear popping out I reviewed videos on the function of the gear case and took it apart and put it back together once but it still popped out), or if this is likely because of worn out parts.
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