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bluefitness  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, December 30, 2009 8:16:10 PM(UTC)
bluefitness

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I used to be an HVAC technician a few years back. I didn't work on many domestic refrigerators, but I did have a brief stint in commercial refrigeration. Our company used to put Supco 3 n 1 devices on commercial refrigeration with great success and very low call backs. It is impossible to stock every relay, cap, and overload, and it isn't cost effective to have to return to the job after the part is ordered. Not to mention refrigeration needs to be fixed immediately to mitigate any losses to perishables. I have put several of them on domestic refrigerators for friends and families and have never had one fail. I put a RCO series on my brothers refrigerator 3 years ago, and it is still running strong.

I know some people say 3 n 1 burn start windings. How prevalent are these compressor burn outs? Does anyone have hands on experience with these 3 n 1 devices burning out compressors? I know these things can make a compressor run when a OEM start device no longer can. Maybe some of these compressors were already on their way out before the 3 n 1 was installed. For example, if a tech that only uses OEM parts, installs the OEM replacement parts and the compressor is already on its way out. The OEM device would not start the compressor. The tech then would diagnose the compressor as being locked up.

Now, let's say the tech didn't use OEM parts. A 3 n 1 could possibly start that same compressor that the OEM parts could not. The tech would leave thinking the refrigerator was fixed. Two weeks later the compressor fails. It wasn't the 3 n 1 that caused the problem. The compressor was already failing. I guess I'm trying to say. How does anyone know that these devices actually cause these problems? How can they last for 7 to 10 years on some compressors and only last two weeks on others?
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richappy  
#2 Posted : Thursday, December 31, 2009 8:42:10 AM(UTC)
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The newer 1/5 or less hp compressors with a 3 n 1 installed, will fail eventually, or as soon as a power surge hits it. I have seen both windings burn out. The 3n1 devices provide a much higher inrush current at start up than they where designed for. Also, that same inrush current may burn out the adaptive defrost board. Not a good thing for this to happen after servicing it as you are responsible for it's failure.
If you see an old fridg. with a compressor drawing more than 2.5 amp, you probably can use the 3n 1.
applianceman  
#3 Posted : Thursday, December 31, 2009 10:41:13 AM(UTC)
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Bluefitness

I think you should always use the correct relay if you have it but if you have a refrigerator with that is off and the food is thawing by all means put the 3-in-1 on. Whirlpool is terrible for having lots of different relays it is tough to carry all of them not to mention they are expensive. I have used a lot of the 3-in-1 switches with probably less than 1% callbacks. If a compressor goes bad after I install the 3-in-1 I would be like you and say it was on the verge of going bad. I mean I have installed the correct relay and the compressor goes bad in a week. I have installed the correct relay and the new relay goes bad in no time (not very often). I always carry the factory switches and only use the 3-in-1 if I don’t have the correct relay and I have saved many of my customers food from going bad by doing so.

Now as far as the adaptive defrost goes I don’t know so watch out for that. I never had any trouble with that but I couldn’t say for sure if I have ever put a 3-in-1 on a refrigerator with an adaptive defrost or the 1/5 horsepower compressor. Put it this way I have never installed a relay and the adaptive defrost went bad soon afterwards but it is something I will look out for now.

Only put a 3-in-1 on to get out of a pinch never install one if you have to order it and l don’t even do it if the food is already bad or there isn’t anything in the refrigerator to go bad. I only do it if I think I could save their food.

I carry a little mars relay (not a 3-in-1) that will work most all GE refrigerators and any other refrigerator that has a cover on the side of the compressor but a lot of Whirlpools have that white switch so you can’t replace it with that switch.


[FONT='Times New Roman']Just my thoughts!! [/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman'][/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman']Refrigerator repair guide[/FONT]
bluefitness  
#4 Posted : Thursday, December 31, 2009 11:06:30 AM(UTC)
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Thanks for the responses. Does this hold try on the new compressors if a RCO 810 is used? The RCO 810 is rated for 1/12 to 1/5 horsepower motors. My parts house always says it takes two weeks for the OEM parts to arrive.
richappy  
#5 Posted : Thursday, December 31, 2009 12:00:09 PM(UTC)
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Applianceman:
You are providing no information that the 3n1 device is safe to use. I read a report on them from "experts" that say they will burn out the compressor, particularly the newer 1/5 hp ones.
These units put far to much current into a fractional hp compressor, and if it allready has a partially burnt start winding, it probably will burn out.
If I find a unit that will not start with the factory specified part, I tell the customer they need a new compressor. It may start fine with the 3n1, but fail later.
applianceman  
#6 Posted : Thursday, December 31, 2009 12:40:56 PM(UTC)
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I wasn’t saying you were wrong!! Nor was I trying to argue with you. [FONT='Times New Roman']I think you misunderstood the point I was making. I was in a round about way agreeing with you. [/FONT]

I was just saying I have used them in pinch lots of times with very few problems (no more problems than the correct relay). I only carry them just in case. I use the correct relay if at all possible. The fact that I have repaired many doesn’t mean it is ok to use it. I am just saying that I am not going to look a costumer in the eye and say you have to throw away all your food if I have a part that most likely put it back to work.

I wasn’t recommending using the 3-in-1 relays and I didn’t say you were wrong. I didn’t mean to imply that you were wrong.

I said (in so many words) that I have never heard/ didn’t know about the chance of the additive defrost problem and would look out for it because I believed that you wouldn’t mention it if it weren’t true.

I agree it probably don’t take much to burn out a 1/5 hp compressor.

Also I was not suggesting using a 3-in-1 if the correct relay will not start the compressor. I feel the same as you if I replace the relay with the correct relay and it doesn’t start I say the compressor is bad.

The last thing I want is problems with a repair I did, I don’t like return visits.
applianceman  
#7 Posted : Thursday, December 31, 2009 1:57:46 PM(UTC)
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I hope this clears things up!

Bluefitness,

That I think you should do is get up a good stock of popular start relays and keep a few 3-in-1 relays only for back-ups.

Don’t use them on 1/5 hp compressors (I didn’t mention this before but it didn’t mean I disagreed with this fact).

Don’t use them on refrigerators with adaptive defrosts (I had no idea this was a problem until now and I am glad I do).

Don’t use them if the customer can wait for the correct part (if they have somewhere else to store their food or it is too late to save it).

Only use it as a last resort.

This sums up what I meant to say in my first post.




Richappy

Again I didn’t mean to make you or anyone else think I was disagreeing with you and I am sorry if it sounded like that.

[FONT='Times New Roman']I don’t make a habit of using these 3-in-1 relays. [/FONT]
bluefitness  
#8 Posted : Thursday, December 31, 2009 2:26:27 PM(UTC)
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Thanks richappy and applianceman. I appreciate the help. I'm guessing that it does not matter if the smaller 3 n 1 is used. I noticed that a lot of techs just use the 1/3 to 1/4 rated 3 n 1 devices even on the newer compressors.
richappy  
#9 Posted : Thursday, December 31, 2009 3:38:16 PM(UTC)
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Any time someone uses a substitute part instead of the correct one this opens them to real problems with the customer if the compressor later fails and the customer realizes the device made the compressor draw excessive current.
This happened to me once where the customer felt it was the device that caused the compressor to fail. He failed to take in consideration that the compressor was allready damaged and prone to fail.
My interest here is not to be antagonistic, but to save us from potential lawsuits or other claims which could happen. In my opinion, if a customer where to make a small claims case, he would most probably win.
richappy  
#10 Posted : Friday, January 1, 2010 4:23:39 AM(UTC)
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All compressors contain a Klyxon overload device that rapidly clicks open when the compressor current exceeds the rating of the compressor. This device is made with different current trip levels for each compressor. This device will open for a few minutes allowing the compressor windings to cool down. It is a very effective device and also provides over temperature protection.
A 3n1 cannot contain such a sprecific current trip level klyxon as it has to work over a relatively large current range. Instead, and due to the much larger inrush current it supplies, it contains a much slower current trip device that trips at a much higher current level and fails to provide an adequit cool down period.
In the event of a power surge, or power rapidly going off and on due to substation contactor chatter, the power rms value will exceed the compressor power ratings.
This device will work reliably in the "older" greater than 1/4 hp compressors as they have a stator with a larger and thicker iron core with a "softer" permeability characteristic. This prevents magnetic core saturation due to high inrush currents.
The newer 1/5 hp compressors have much less stator core cross section that can easily become saturated. This is done to dramatically increase efficiency. When a power surge happens, the reactance of the stator aproaches zero and the current is limited only by the copper wire resistance which is around 3- 4 ohms. This happens when the line voltage transients approach double voltage levels, which happens often enough. The peak power levels under these conditions could easily exceed 3000 watts. In the worst case, during substation contactor chatter, the power levels could reach 3000 watts RMS! I have witnessed compressor windings literally explode internally and short to the compressor housing.
Hope this explains everything.
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