I have a Supco RCO410 3n1 device. It is rated for 1/4 to 1/3hp compressors. I don’t see a HP rating for the compressor. Is this device safe to use without finding out the actual compressor horsepower? This is for a domestic refrigerator. The also make the RCO810 rated for 1/12 to 1/5hp compressors. I’m not sure what the typical compressor size is for a domestic refrigerator.
Average household refrigerator has a 1/4 compressor. Post your model number and we can look that up. How old is the refrigerator? Using a 3 in 1 such as RCO410 will void your manufacturer’s warranty, if the compressor is still under warranty.
I believe it is 5 years plus. What is the normal compressor warranty on a new refrigerator? I’m thinking it is only 1 year for all other parts. In my area, everyone uses 3 n 1 devices because it is hard to stock that many start relays. One of the biggest appliance repair companies in my area says they prefer using these devices. The fail rate is far less. I have used SPP6 hard start kits for years in lieu of potential relays and start capacitors with extremely good luck on air conditioning units. I have never seen one fail (I have seen kick start types fail). We did put factory hard start kits on new units, however. This was units under a few years old, or when hard starts are needed because of a TXV application.
Thank you for your help.
Those 3-n-1 hard start kits are good for older R-12 compressors but the more efficient 134A compressors can’t handle them for very long. Maybe 6 mos tops. They do as they say tho they hard start the compressor and the start winding hangs in there longer than normal eventually the start winding takes a crap.
I think v2k04 provided a very good answer. As far as warranty, manufacturers typically provide 5 years on the sealed system which includes the compressor, although things are changing and mfgs are cutting down on their warranty coverage.
V2K04
Are these failures due to start windings already showing wear or in applications where the compressor will not start without the assist? The reason I ask is I installed some of these devices on my brother’s refrigerator and one of my friends houses. They were both R134 units. This was 2 years plus on both units and they are still in operation. I tried getting the manufacturer components, but two different supply houses kept asking me why I just don’t use a 3n1. I know supply house guys don’t really know their stuff, but I would have to assume that the failure rate can’t be that high.
It depends on the compressor but a 3 n 1 was designed for a compressor that is getting hard to start. Not as an OEM replacement.These new compressors some of them draw under an amp. You put one of those on there and you’re gonna make the compressor work harder and short live it. Check the amps with one on then check the amps with the oem there is a noticeable difference. Not to mention the efficiency rating has changed.
I would NEVER use a 3 n 1 hard start device on a modern, R134A compressor, will cause a compressor failure without warning. See my article “replacing compressor start devices”.
[QUOTE=richappy;321670]I would NEVER use a 3 n 1 hard start device on a modern, R134A compressor, will cause a compressor failure without warning. See my article “replacing compressor start devices”.[/QUOTE]
I keep hearing this, but I have never experienced any problems. I have probably put on 20 plus of these. My brothers refrigerator is still running after 6 years with the 3 n 1. The refrigerator is in the garage. I also put one on a chest freezer with a small fractional horsepower compressor, and it still runs perfectly. Every time I go into a local parts store to buy one, the guy keeps telling me it is a crutch and will not last two weeks. All of them have lasted years. He just tries to sell his customers new refrigerators. Maybe, I’m having good luck with the ones I have put on, but it sure beats buying a new refrigerator. I wouldn’t put one on a new under warranty unit, but I see no problem in putting one in a 5 year plus one. If it is under 5 years, I usually put one on temporarily and replace it with an OEM starting device later. Maybe, my sample is too small, or I am just lucky (knock on wood). I have also used SPP6 Superboost on A/C units with absolutely no issues. I get told all the time that these devices do not work. How would a company be able to sell 100’s of thousands of these devices that damage units and not have a class action suit filed against them? Why would the supply houses still stock them? Why would some techs live by them?
If you read my article, you would notice these devices fail under power surge conditions. Perhaps you live in an area free from these conditions.
I will Not use these devices because I put one in a fridg. and the compressor blew out within one week. I was lucky I didn’t get sued! There is plenty of evidence these devices overdrive the compressor start and run windings. From a professional view, I will not use a product that has evidence like this.
After publishing my article on these, I have had few feedbacks supporting them, just a lot of comments from technicians in other sites that say they will blow out compressors eventually. The positive comments that I received showed NO engineering or emperical evidence they are safe to use, none!
Customers can read and a lot of them do check the internet for evidence these devices are bad.
If you use one, and the customer reads the negative reports, you just might get sued.
[QUOTE=richappy;322005]If you read my article, you would notice these devices fail under power surge conditions. Perhaps you live in an area free from these conditions.
I will Not use these devices because I put one in a fridg. and the compressor blew out within one week. I was lucky I didn’t get sued! There is plenty of evidence these devices overdrive the compressor start and run windings. From a professional view, I will not use a product that has evidence like this.
After publishing my article on these, I have had few feedbacks supporting them, just a lot of comments from technicians in other sites that say they will blow out compressors eventually. The positive comments that I received showed NO engineering or emperical evidence they are safe to use, none!
Customers can read and a lot of them do check the internet for evidence these devices are bad.
If you use one, and the customer reads the negative reports, you just might get sued.[/QUOTE]
I haven’t read your article yet. I’ve just heard so many different things on the internet, yet the service techs in my area always use them. If you ask a parts store (Johnstone, etc.) for a OEM relay, they will say why don’t you just put a 3 n 1 on it. This leads me to believe that a lot of techs use them without issue. The appliance store I was referring to in the other posts tells me all kinds of stuff. I tried ordering the OEM relay, and he starts lecturing me on how the compressor is what caused the relay to go out and not the other way around. I asked him if he even new what the relay was comprised of, and he just ignored me. The OEM relay is a very basic device. I can see why it would burn out after 6 or 7 years of use. There isn’t much to them. I don’t do HVAC or refrigeration work any longer, but I wouldn’t hesitate to put one on a friend or family member’s refrigerator. If it is overdriving the windings, it should just burn the winding out. I haven’t seen this either (knock on wood again). There is also the possibility that the compressor was already worn prior to putting on the 3 n 1. I have seen guys try the OEM and it not work. They then put on the 3 n 1. It will start due to the start cap, but it will fail eventually. If the original starting device (working condition) can’t get it to run, the compressor is worn and will fail eventually. I usually just check the starting amps and running amps. On the other hand, I’ve seen compressors on AC units work flawlessly with starting devices. Most of the time, the manufacturer does not put one on to save costs. The compressor will fail to start under certain conditions. For example, if the evaporator has a non-equalizing TXV, a starting device should be put on. I’m sure there are issues with these type of devices, but compressors that have the OEM starting device also fail sometimes. It is just too easy to blame the 3 n 1. These devices have been out for 10 plus years. They would have been pulled already, if there was widespread damage. If nothing else, techs would no longer use them. I know if I had a moderate fail rate with these. I would no longer use them. I don’t think the failure rate is even above 5 percent on these.
Some wholesalers are not selling the 3 n 1 hard start devices anymore, probably from too many complaints. These devices are fine on the more robust, high HP compressors, but the use of them on the modern R134A fractional hp compressors will burn out the windings during a power surge.
Personally, you can do what you want, but I will respond negatively to anyone on this forum who recommends these on a modern, fractional, R134A compressor.
Go to web site ************************** and search for the forum, then search for responses to use of 3 n 1 start devices. You will find a technical bulletin from Electrolux which bans their use, has data showing these items catch on fire in cases where the compressor started to fail and draw high current(200- 400 watts), over design limits due to high head pressure or bad windings.
My handle there was richapplianceguy. Sorry, can’t add the site, will try later.
[QUOTE=richappy;322100]Some wholesalers are not selling the 3 n 1 hard start devices anymore, probably from too many complaints. These devices are fine on the more robust, high HP compressors, but the use of them on the modern R134A fractional hp compressors will burn out the windings during a power surge.
Personally, you can do what you want, but I will respond negatively to anyone on this forum who recommends these on a modern, fractional, R134A compressor.
Go to web site ************************** and search for the forum, then search for responses to use of 3 n 1 start devices. You will find a technical bulletin from Electrolux which bans their use, has data showing these items catch on fire in cases where the compressor started to fail and draw high current(200- 400 watts), over design limits due to high head pressure or bad windings.
My handle there was richapplianceguy. Sorry, can’t add the site, will try later.[/QUOTE]
What suppliers are not selling these devices? I haven’t found one that does not. I’m not trying to be argumentative, but where is the research that shows these burnout compressors? They make them to work on compressors as small as 1/12 horsepower. Also, you do not have to purchase one with a start cap. I’ve read that people want to see data that it does not damage compressors. You should be looking for data showing it does. Why would there be data on something that does not happen? If there isn’t a problem, no data will exist stating the contrary. Moreover, most of the new starting devices on new 134a fractional horsepower units are using PTC type devices. This is the exact same technology incorporated in the 3 n 1 devices. If power surges adversely effect 3 n 1 devices, they should effect OEM devices. If you are referring to startup power surges (i.e. power goes out for the entire house then surges when power comes back on), this should happen on only a few isolated situations. Most of the electronics should go out as well because they all consist of capacitors based on your theory. If you are referring to power spikes, the compressor would need to be starting at the exact time of the power surge. Otherwise, the start capacitor has already dropped out. Just out of curiosity, do you have any data supporting your assertion that these cause damage? There shouldn’t be data stating the contrary. Also, how many compressors have you seen burnout due to these, as opposed to working. Like I said previously, I bet hundreds of thousands of these things are currently in operation. Maybe, the ones you saw are the wrong size (1/4 hrspower rated starting device placed on a 1/5 or lower).
I wrote an engineering report on the effects the excessive current these devices supply.
Again, I will always recommend that these devices must not be used in R134A fractional hp compressors. To do so is risky.
Again, you have not presented any definitive data to show these devices are safe to use.
If you can do an engineering analysis to disprove mine, I welcome you to do that.
[QUOTE=richappy;322151]I wrote an engineering report on the effects the excessive current these devices supply.
Again, I will always recommend that these devices must not be used in R134A fractional hp compressors. To do so is risky.
Again, you have not presented any definitive data to show these devices are safe to use.
If you can do an engineering analysis to disprove mine, I welcome you to do that.[/QUOTE]
Oh. I didn’t know you did a study on it. Are you a professional engineer? I would like to see this engineering report and the details on the study you performed. If it is a thorough analysis, then I will definitely not use them.
I can’t provide you with an engineering analysis on something that is not a problem. Who spends the time and research on something that does not exist? Research is usually performed to determine the cause of a problem. For example, Trane isn’t going to do an extensive engineering analysis due to lack of oil return, unless there are units that are failing due to lack of oil. They aren’t going to perform this analysis, if no units are failing due to lack of oil return. Moreover, they are not going to do an analysis if there is no problem with oil return. Another example is the Toyota recall problems. They didn’t perform an analysis on accelerating vehicles, until it became a problem. Like I said before, these things have been out for 10 plus years with a low failure rate. Can you provide the failure rate and prove that it is directly correlated to the 3 n 1? You are asking me to disprove something that you (nor anyone else) has proven to be problematic. It is up to you to prove that that the 3 n 1 directly related to compressor failures. How is this possible when they use the EXACT same technology as the OEM start devices? Again, I can’t disprove something that has not been proven.
You can tell anyone you want not to use them. You should provide a real engineering analysis with concrete evidence that the premature failure of compressors is attributable to 3 n 1 devices. Otherwise, it is just your opinion. You are stating it as a fact which could be considered defamation.
Do this simple test. Find a refrigerator with a fractional hrspower compressor that uses R134a. You can usually find them at a recycle center. Put it in your garage (harsh condition) and replace the starting device with a 3 n 1. Let it run. I guarantee it will not fail in a week or two or even 6 months like you stated. Make sure you use the 1/12 to 1/5 horsepower one. Like I said before, I have put several of these on without one issue. They work great on fractional horsepower units. The very small compressor in a chest freezer is still humming along after years. Why hasn’t it failed from excessive current? You can’t get better data than actually testing it. I think people are too quick to blame the 3 n 1. The compressor could have been on its last leg.
I don’t understand why everyone is asking me to prove that 3 n 1 devices do not cause problems. It is supposed to be the other way around. There should be study that shows that it does cause problems. Again, I’m not trying to be argumentative. I’m just stating that I have saved a lot of people from buying new refrigerators by using this device. It is hard to stop using a device that has such a high success rate.
The world is reading this and wondering. You are the one who must show everyone why you are doing this attack, personal pride, etc. I wish you would just stop this or better call me or email me, this should be a personal, quiet debate and not a divisive one.
In any event, you are about to look very foolish and hard headed, I am the gentleman who will try to prevent that. Show us you are the same.Others have done similar attacks and failed.
I can run circles around you in most engineering topics. I have a BSEE degree from Penn State. Excelled in physics, had B average in electromagnetics, thermodynamics, circuit design, microcircuit design,mathematics,strength of materials, and mechanical engineering subjects like strength of materials, dynamics, etc. Developed a patentable power control device in graduate school,where I had courses in motor design. Retired from the air force where I was a senior engineer.
If you have similar background, we can have a lively discussion.
[QUOTE=richappy;322420]I can run circles around you in most engineering topics. I have a BSEE degree from Penn State. Excelled in physics, had B average in electromagnetics, thermodynamics, circuit design, microcircuit design,mathematics,strength of materials, and mechanical engineering subjects like strength of materials, dynamics, etc. Developed a patentable power control device in graduate school,where I had courses in motor design. Retired from the air force where I was a senior engineer.
If you have similar background, we can have a lively discussion.[/QUOTE]
Lol.. Then post your data. You are stating opinions with no basis. What study have you performed? What criteria did you use? Where is all this engineering data? You are making derogatory and defamatory statements towards a company/product. I would like to see some unbiased data. You seem very compassionate about this subject, yet you only offer your opinion. You can’t even answer any of my questions. Like I said I am not being argumentative. I’m just asking you to prove your point, which you seem to be failing at.
What wholesalers do not sell these devices?
What is the failure rate of these devices?
Why do OEM devices use the exact same technology and are acceptable to you?
Where is your engineering analysis that shows a strong correlation between the use of these devices and high compressor failure rates?
Why have these been placed on hundreds of thousands of units and not been recalled?
Why do so many techs use them with high success rates?
Why do so many companies keep buying a product with a high failure rate?
Why hasn’t a class action law suit been filed against the company that makes these?
You may have a strong engineering background, but you fail to prove anything. You can’t just say these things cause excessive compressor failures because I said so. Where is the real life data? I can tell you have no basis because you are starting to resort to personal attacks instead of showing detailed analysis. Can you at least answer this simple question?
How did you come to the conclusion that these devices cause premature compressor failure?
If you are correct in your assertion, I would appreciate the data standing behind it. I will never use these devices again, if you can provide this information. I just don’t see how these things are so problematic as you are leading them on to be. Like I said before, I have put on 20 plus with not a single failure (knock on wood). Why haven’t these compressors failed yet?
Until you can provide any substantiating information, please just state these are your opinions and that these devices could cause premature failure. I can not prove these things do not cause premature compressor failure, but I am not making that assertion. It is just my opinion that these do not have as high of a failure rate as you are leading on. These things do not cause every compressor to fail in 6 months. They do not cause every compressor to fail in 6 years.
For some reason you are on this forum supporting a device designed for higher hp compressors that can survive thermal and high inrush conditions. I have proved, these devices will cause the newer fractional compressors to fail. You have not shown any engineering proof that I am wrong.
Otherwise, I would like you to stop making all this trouble on this forum.