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MargretS  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, October 7, 2014 11:02:27 AM(UTC)
MargretS

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A few years ago I replaced the upper and lower front seals (and the rear bearing). The lower seal's thickness is about a quarter inch where it's not worn, which is about half the upper seal's thickness. Before I installed them I wondered about the mismatch in thickness and whether it would make a proper seal, but I trusted it because the part numbers were right and the bag was marked "genuine Electrolux."

I recently ordered a "preventative maintenance kit" that includes new seals. The new lower seal is as thick as the new upper seal (and the old upper seal) which intuitively seems right. They're about half an inch thick. (The new lower seal is white and might be made of a synthetic material. I don't think it's felt, unlike the older seals and the new upper seal.)

How thick should the lower seal be? Should it be half as thick as the upper seal, or should the lower seal and upper seal be the same thickness? Should they both be about half an inch thick?

The dryer tends to overheat. Its top gets uncomfortably hot to the touch, and a temperature probe inside the back panel on the steel next to the fuse shows that the fuse will reach its blowing temperature if I don't frequently switch the temperature dial to "no heat." I suspect the cause is a leaky seal. I think I've ruled out air obstructions or a partially shorted heating coil, and I don't think the thermostats are relevant to overheating of the dryer cabinet. (Here's why I think the thermostats are irrelevant: The cycling thermostat, which senses the exhaust temperature, seems designed to stay closed due to evaporative cooling until the clothes are nearly dry. I can tell the cycling thermostat opens and closes late in the cycle when the clothes are dry or nearly dry, by observing when the temperature begins to fluctuate down and up; also the peak temperature during these fluctuations is much lower than the temperature during most of the cycle. This is a sensible design, because while the evaporative cooling is protecting the clothing there's no need to run the heater at less than full heat, and it would waste time and cause unnecessary wear and tear on the clothes and the dryer to run longer at less than full heat. The high limit thermostat is designed to stay closed unless some other problem causes overheating. Also, by simultaneously observing the temperature at the fuse and the temperature at the high limit thermostat, I see that the fuse gets hot even while the temperature at the high limit thermostat is below 245F, where the 285F-40L high limit thermostat is spec'ed to be irrelevant.)

A leaky front seal would create an undesirable alternative path allowing a portion of the heated air to flow OUTSIDE the drum into the leak. The path is outside the drum but inside the dryer cabinet, so the cabinet will heat up. Does this make sense? Can it be significant enough to explain the overheating?

I haven't yet tried to verify that's what's happening. One way I may try is to place a video camera and flashlight inside the cabinet pointed at the seal, and place a source of smoke (burning incense) near the heating coil, to check whether smoke flows into the seal. (I would set the dial to "no heat" to protect the camera, and take the belt off the motor pulleys to minimize turbulence.) Another test might be to place tiny bits of paper outside the seal to check whether they find their way into the lint trap.

Another concern is that the three nylon upper glides are worn thin even though they're only a few years old. One of the three glides has even lost a corner; it broke off after the glide got thin. So I plan to replace the upper seal and glides too. I'm wondering whether the new thicker lower seal will increase or decrease the wear on the upper glides, compared to the wear on the upper glides with the current half-thick lower seal. On the one hand, the extra thickness might increase the pressure against the rotating drum all the way around, including on the glides, causing more wear on the glides. On the other hand, since the lower seal is much longer than the upper seal, part of the lower seal is on the upper half of the opening, so maybe the extra thickness on the upper half will help bear some of the weight of the drum, reducing the weight and wear on the upper glides. Does anyone have an opinion about whether the thicker lower seal will increase or decrease the wear on the upper glides? (This concern is why I haven't yet installed the new seals.)

For awhile I thought the reversing motor feature might contribute to the overheating because the air flow pauses for a few seconds each time the motor changes direction. But observation of the temperature at the fuse has shown the effect of the pauses is tiny... a rise of only about one degree, after a pause.

Thanks in advance to anyone who tries to help!
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denman  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, October 8, 2014 6:46:22 AM(UTC)
denman

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Here are your parts
Parts for Frigidaire FSE747GES1 Dryer - AppliancePartsPros.com

They look like they are both about half an inch thick.
Take a look at item 20 and 21 in section 6. Note that each square is 1 inch.

The below is just a comment on the air flow.
The drum etc. is actually under a vacuum when it is running.
Air is pulled past the heater then through the drum to the blower and then pushed out of the exhaust.
Nothing is 100% but often if there is an air leak in the drum seals ambient air is pulled into the air flow path.
This reduces the amount of air flowing over the heating coils which can cause overheating.
Also then the air that reaches the blower is actually cooler due to the room air This then keeps the heater on more as it is the blower air that is regulating the temperature.

I do not think that using the correct seal will add much to the drum resistance as most of the weight of the drum is held up by the upper glides.

You seem to have done a thorough job troubleshooting this so I am assuming that the rear bearing and all other internal seals are good.

Since you have to pull the sucker apart it is a good idea to clean and re-grease (using high temperature grease), the rear support bearing.
THIS FORUM IS DEAD!!!!!!!
MargretS  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, October 8, 2014 12:15:44 PM(UTC)
MargretS

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Thanks, Denman, for the speedy reply and for the information about the correct thicknesses of the seals. I'll install the new seals/glides soon.

I have a minor mystery regarding the wear pattern on the two ends of the lower seal. I've attached a close-up photo that shows where one end of the thin lower seal abuts one end of the thicker upper seal. The upper & lower seals and the nylon glides show wear on the portions deepest into the lip of the front of the drum, but they're as thick as when new on the portions closest to a person standing in front of the dryer. Most of this wear pattern makes sense; it means the seals and glides don't mate deeply into the drum when the front panel is attached to the dryer. What doesn't make sense to me is the wear at the two ends of the lower seal. The ends of the lower seal abut the ends of the much thicker upper seal. Due to the different thicknesses, I don't see how the rotating drum can touch the ends of the lower seal, yet the ends of the lower seal have the same wear pattern as the rest of the lower seal: worn on the portion deepest into the drum. How did the drum rub against the thin seal where the thick seal was right next to it?

(The photo also shows where a corner of one of the nylon glides has broken off. This is the trailing glide while the motor is spinning forward, so it seems a bit counter-intuitive to me that the corner broke from this glide instead of from the glide that leads when the motor spins forward.)

Best wishes,
Margret
MargretS attached the following image(s):
Close-up of worn felt seals and nylon glide - IMG_0982.jpg
denman  
#4 Posted : Thursday, October 9, 2014 2:14:49 AM(UTC)
denman

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Not sure I understand the quetion. The glide do look worn badly,
It looks like the glide is diferent than what is shown in the parts re: the glide itself does not cover the felt backing width but this may be just due to wear,

Perhaps the following video will help you.
A different model machind but the glides look the same.

I am off to the cabin later today and will not be back till next week so will not have internet access.
I just thought that I should tell you in case you need more help and think that I am ignoring you.
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MargretS  
#5 Posted : Thursday, October 9, 2014 7:27:02 AM(UTC)
MargretS

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Thanks again for another speedy reply, and for considering the wear shown in my photo.

Should I glue the new upper seal so it will fit a little deeper into the drum? I don't want it so deep that clothing will snag on the glides or felt, of course... just a little deeper in order to spread the drum's weight over a little more of the surface of the glides. I'm thinking 1/16th inch deeper, based on the following calculation: The worn area of the glides is about 1/2 inch wide and the flat part of the lip of the drum is about 9/16 inch wide, so gluing the upper seal 1/16" more forward (deeper into the drum) would increase the contacting width to the entire 9/16 inch of the lip. This would increase the effective surface of the glides by about 12%, which seems large enough to be worth considering. If the calculation isn't an oversimplification, the seal and glides wouldn't reach so far into the drum that clothes can make contact. Also, the edge of the upper felt extends about a millimeter deeper than the glides, so gluing it more forward would place the edge of the felt in the zone where the drum lip begins to curve away. If so, the edge of the felt won't wear as thin as the glides, and might do an even better job of keeping clothing out of the gap between the lip and the front panel's flange. Does anyone have an opinion about gluing it 1/16" deeper?

Regarding the "mystery" of the wear pattern that I asked about in my previous message, I'm attaching another photo to try to make the question clearer. It's the same image as in the previous message, but marked up with some annotations. And here's a rephrasing of the question: Where the end of the lower seal abuts the end of the upper seal, I would presume the drum contacts only the upper seal because it's so much thicker than the lower seal. So if the drum never contacts the lower seal there, why did the lower seal wear there?

Regarding the nylon glide's wear and position on the upper seal, the photo is deceptive. A top view would show the glide actually does reach to within about a millimeter of the edge of the felt, like in the AppliancePartsPro product image. The angled view is deceptive because the brown stain penetrates far enough into the felt that some of the side of the felt looks as if it's part of the top of the felt.

What is that brown stain, by the way? I don't see rust anywhere in the dryer, and the lip of the drum that contacts the seals is black, not brown. Is the brown color a sign of a problem? Is it a clue about the overheating? Is it a clue about whether the seals leak?

I don't know why the nylon glides are manufactured so wide that one of their edges sticks out about half an inch beyond the felt (in the direction away from the drum). (They're the same in the AppliancePartsPro image too.) I don't see a purpose for the glides to be so wide. They don't wear there, which means they don't bear any of the drum's weight nor reduce the friction. Also, the underside view in the AppliancePartsPro image shows the pair of nylon studs that descend from each glide into the felt (which help hold the glide in position on the felt) are located far from the edge that sticks out, which means the edge doesn't provide structural strength to the studs.
MargretS attached the following image(s):
Close-up of worn felt seals and nylon glide, annotated - IMG_0982.jpg
denman  
#6 Posted : Thursday, October 16, 2014 12:16:59 AM(UTC)
denman

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Perhaps the following will be useful to you even though it is not for your specific model.
http://appliancejunk.com...&id=260;t=1413447241

You will have to join the site and be logged in to be able to download it.

The brown residue looks like glue that has discolored over time.
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MargretS  
#7 Posted : Thursday, October 16, 2014 7:01:53 AM(UTC)
MargretS

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Posts: 28

In the photo I attached to my previous post, there are two brown colors. I was asking about the brown stain on the surface of the seals, not the little globs of brown glue near where the lower seal abuts the upper seal. The upper seal was originally gray and the lower seal was originally white. When you say the brown is glue residue, are you saying glue migrated out from underneath the seals and coated the surfaces of the seals, or are you referring only to the little brown globs?
MargretS  
#8 Posted : Thursday, October 16, 2014 7:49:32 AM(UTC)
MargretS

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Thanks very much, Denman, for posting that link. I've wanted a service manual for years.

I recently started a new forum thread titled "Why is the lower seal so much thinner than the upper seal?" after I noticed the new lower seal I was preparing to glue is as thin as the old lower seal. They're 5/16 inch thick, much thinner than the upper seal. In the AppliancePartsPros product image, the lower seal looks like it's supposed to be about 1/2 inch thick, judging from the grid behind it.

Page 68 of the service manual has a photo of new drum seals, which I've attached below. It wasn't shot from the optimal angle to compare the thicknesses of the lower and upper seals. Nevertheless it appears the lower seal is designed to be thinner than the upper seal, assuming the photo shows the correct parts. But this assumption shouldn't be taken for granted, because a single mistake by Frigidaire about the specs for the lower seal could explain both why the lower seal is too thin to make a good seal and why it's thin in the photo. If Frigidaire made a mistake, we're all buying the wrong part, even though it has the right part number.

In the newer forum thread, I describe how I demonstrated a leak all the way around the old thin lower seal... I was able to easily slip a paper clip into the drum through the gap between the lower seal & drum, without applying force. Anyone can do this test by simply raising the top of the dryer (so you can reach down into it). Straighten a paper clip, bend the paper clip about 90 degrees a couple inches from one end, and test whether you can easily slide the end of the paper clip between the lower seal and the lip of the drum. (Don't force it in; you don't want to scratch the lip of the drum. No need for force... it's a good seal where it doesn't slide in easily.)

The service manual contains inconsistencies about the possible causes of overheating:

Page 45 of the service manual is unclear about whether a leak can cause the thermal fuse to blow. It lumps leaks together with other kinds of air flow problems where it lists the possible symptoms: "Airflow problems are usually caused by restrictions, leaks or short unrestricted vents resulting in longer drying times, hotter dryer surfaces and in extreme cases causing the thermal limiter to open on electric dryers." I don't believe short unrestricted vents can cause the thermal limiter (a.k.a thermal fuse) to open, because I think short unrestricted vents would have the opposite effect... wastefully expelling too much heat out the exhaust. If I'm right about that, it means the sentence failed to be sufficiently specific, and thus it doesn't imply whether or not a leak can blow the thermal limiter.

Page 52 has a table of error codes. Code E 8C means the high limit thermostat trips frequently. I presume this would relate to some types of overheating problems. The possible causes listed in the table include leaky drum seals, but not a defective control thermostat: "Check for blocked lint filter, blocked exhaust, air leaks around air duct, broken blower fan blades, worn or loose drum seals, dryer installed in closet with solid doors or door seal not correctly seated."

Page 58 has a flowchart for troubleshooting of overheating. Unfortunately, the word "overheating" is vague since there are four types:
1. Clothes damaged by heat when the control switch is set to "low heat."
2. Dryer failing to cool off or stay at room temperature when the control switch is set to "no heat."
3. Dryer cabinet overheating (and thermal fuse possibly blowing) after the clothes are dry or nearly dry.
4. Dryer cabinet overheating (and thermal fuse possibly blowing) while the clothes are still wet.
To avoid wasting time testing irrelevant parts, each type of overheating should have its own troubleshooting flowchart, or the flowchart should begin with questions about the type of overheating.

The troubleshooting flowchart doesn't mention the possibility of leaks. (Nor the possibility of a partially shorted heating coil putting out more heat than designed.) The only possible causes it lists are air flow restrictions, a defective control thermistor or a defective control board. For my old dryer model, thermistor translates to thermostat (which would need to be diagnosed differently than a thermistor) and "control board" translates to the fabric temperature control (a 4-position switch & resistor network that sets the bias offset temperature of the control thermostat, and can be set to "air fluff" to completely disable the heat).

The control thermistor (or thermostat) and the control board (or fabric temperature control) obviously are possible causes of the first two types of overheating--clothes damaged by heat or the dryer heating when set to "no heat." And I think they might cause the third type--overheating of the cabinet after the clothes are dry. But I'm not convinced they can cause the fourth type--overheating of the cabinet while the clothes are wet--since I think a well-designed dryer should keep the heat fully on while the clothes are wet (so the clothes will dry as fast as possible, to reduce wear & tear on the clothes & dryer, to reduce power consumption, and to save time). Dryers should be designed not to overheat when the heat is fully on, if there are no air flow problems (so that nearly all of the heated air will be sucked into the back of the drum) and the clothes are wet (so that evaporative cooling will keep the drum and exhaust ducts from getting too hot). Evaporative cooling will keep the exhaust temperature low, causing the control thermostat to keep the heat fully on, until the clothes are nearly dry. If this is true, it means the control thermostat and the fabric temperature control are irrelevant to overheating type 4.
MargretS attached the following image(s):
Frigidaire dryer service manual - page 68 - photo of drum seals - screencapture.jpg
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