Spider Corrosion And Foul Odours In Front Load Washers Options  Email this topic  Watch this topic  Print this topic » Normal Threaded
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David F		#1 Posted : Sunday, July 18, 2010 1:05:09 AM(UTC)
Rank: Member Groups: Registered Joined: 7/18/2010(UTC) Posts: 44		Many posts on many sites claim that the corrosion of the spiders is due to galvanic action. I do not agree, I believe it is primarily chemical corrosion. Should the corrosion have been galvanic between the stainless steel drum and the aluminium spider the majority of the corrosion would have been at the junction of the two metals i.e. at the ends of the arms. I have seen no photographs of spiders corroded in such a manner, nor read of any similar descriptions. Aluminium is corroded when immersed in an aqueous solution with a pH value above about 8.0. All detergents have to be above about 8.0 or they would not work. The Material Safety Data Sheets put out by Proctor and Gamble state that the pH for one of the liquid ‘Tides’ is 8.0 and for one of the ‘Tide’ powdered detergents as 11.0. Bleach, (sodium hypochlorite) is also very corrosive to aluminium. I should add that for corrosion of the spider to take place these levels are considerably above the levels found in a washing machine during the wash/rinse phases of the cycle. Sodium carbonate (washing soda), sodium hydroxide, borax, and sodium percarbonate found in some laundry aids are also corrosive to aluminium, provided the required concentrations are reached. I believe the mechanics of the corrosion are as follows. Even after the fastest spin small quantities of water will remain on the shaft and towards the centre of the spider. Any recesses in the spider close to the centre will aggravate this situation. This water will contain very, very small quantities of laundry aids used, soil from the laundry and chemicals from the ‘tap’ water. Should this water be allowed to stand the water will evaporate until such time as sufficient has gone to allow the pH of the remaining mixture to rise above the threshold at which corrosion will occur. Additionally the retained water will quickly become foul smelling leading to, I believe, many of the complaints about mold and mildew. The photograph below is of the foul smelling 'gunk' build up in the spider of a 4.5 year old Frigidaire built Kenmore. The drum was removed because of failed bearings and 'the smell'. After clean up the spider was fit for further service. Bearings and seal were procured locally for less than C$40.00. Not the Frigidaire/Sears ripoff of having to buy the complete rear half ofthe outer drum.
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richappy		#2 Posted : Sunday, July 18, 2010 12:07:30 PM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Senior Expert Joined: 9/10/2007(UTC) Posts: 9,586 Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 2 post(s)		Is this true also for the special HE detergent. I understand you can minimize this with less soap and a low sudsing detergent. Also, other people get the alluminum spider anodized. Don't know how to get this done though.
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David F		#3 Posted : Sunday, July 18, 2010 2:18:13 PM(UTC)
Rank: Member Groups: Registered Joined: 7/18/2010(UTC) Posts: 44		To Richappy, As far as I am aware the simple answer is yes. However several other things have to be taken into account: 1 It is the actual pH of the ‘water mix’ left behind at the end of the last rinse that will determine the rate of corrosion. Should the only laundry aid to have been used be an HE detergent, and in only just sufficient quantity, then the quantities of other contaminants will be extremely small, and therefore, in my opinion, and it is only my opinion at this time, there will be little damage to the spider which would be unlikely to cause catastrophic failure of the spider over a reasonable life expectancy (say 10-15 years). 2 Again should only HE detergent have been used the deposits left after the water has evaporated will build up, hold more ‘water’ with the almost, I believe, inevitable complaint of mould. 3 The ‘water’ left on the shaft will evaporate and leave deposits, it has been claimed by some, and it appears creditable to me, that these build ups can cause early failure of the seal allowing ‘water’ into the bearings. Hence premature bearing failure. I feel a greater portion of the early bearing failures are due to overloading of the bearings which, with the passage of time, will lead to seal failure. 4 The area of the spider up near the shaft receives virtually no flushing other than that caused by ‘splash’ thus leaving relatively large quantities of contaminants. I am given to understand that Miele recommend at least 4 rinses after using bleach, at this time I have been unable to confirm this. Only just enough HE detergent will lead to low sudsing, little in the way of active ingredients left at the end of the wash cycle, and therefore, as far as it goes would be beneficial. However you then have to get rid of the ‘crud’ left in/on the spider and on the shaft. Anodizing is the artificial thickening of the naturally occurring oxide coating on aluminium. It is usually done by specialist firms and normally, as far as I am aware, carried out in an acid bath. Will it help reduce the rate of corrosion; I believe it will, but not by very much. I have no first hand knowledge of this but base it on the fact those manufacturers of aluminium cookware, which is normally anodized, very often do not recommend the use of bleach as a cleaner as will damage the aluminium.
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richappy		#4 Posted : Sunday, July 18, 2010 4:16:17 PM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Senior Expert Joined: 9/10/2007(UTC) Posts: 9,586 Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 2 post(s)		Well, David, I learned a lot today! So it is best to use the HE detergent and forget about anodizing. Will pass it on. I have never replaced these bearings, too labor intensive and usually not worth it for most customers.
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David F		#5 Posted : Thursday, July 29, 2010 9:01:49 AM(UTC)
Rank: Member Groups: Registered Joined: 7/18/2010(UTC) Posts: 44		Since my last post I have found a paper on the corrosion of aluminium by Gaute Svenningsen. It is only one page and is easily understandable. Just ‘Google’ “Gaute Svenenningsen Aluminium Corrosion” and go to the site. I think it is worth the ‘read’. A major point it makes is that the oxide film, be it ‘anodized’ or ‘natural’ it is not stable in a corrosive environment.
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David F		#6 Posted : Saturday, August 7, 2010 3:42:28 PM(UTC)
Rank: Member Groups: Registered Joined: 7/18/2010(UTC) Posts: 44		Further to my earlier posts on this subject please see below. At my second attempt I have received a response from Whirlpool reproduced below, together with a copy of my communication to them Dear Mr. XXXXX, Thank you for visiting the Whirlpool web site. We appreciate hearing from you. Please accept our apologies for the difficulties and inconvenience you have experienced with your washer. We are in correspondence and are not licensed technicians or engineers. Any technical aspect of an appliance we are not trained in beyond the basic troubleshooting. A response pertaining to how the Affresh product restricts mold growth and foul odor while at the same time combating corroding we are not able to supply. You may be certain that a copy of your comments has been forwarded to the appropriate department for review and investigation though. One of our engineers will not contact you to discuss this matter but you may be certain that such aspects are thoroughly examined and will be implemented if so needed. Thank you for contact Whirlpool. Sincerely, Dianna D. e-Solutions Specialist Whirlpool Customer eXperience Center http://www.whirlpoolappliances.ca *If replying, please use Forward verses Reply or New as that will leave this message intact and will help us to respond faster. THREAD ID:1-DUZTPU] -----Original Message----- From: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: 7/29/2010 05:39:55 PM To: nar_customersales_ca@whirlpool.com Subject: Questions and Comments Your Details are. The following information has been received Regarding : Other Subject : Spider Corrosion And Foul Odours In Front Loading Washers Comments : The spiders in your front-loading washing machines are manufactured from aluminium alloys, as is the norm for the industry. It is a well known, and well documented fact that aluminium is corroded when immersed in an aqueous solution with a pH value below about 4.0 (nitric acid is a well documented exception) and above about 8.0. A very informative one page paper on this subject is available 'on the web', just "Google" 'Gaute Svenningsen Aluminium Corrosion' and read the result. Are you aware that a great many laundry aids, including HE detergents have a pH above 8.0. Your own Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) for your 'Affresh' gives its pH as 10.5-10.7 with a 1% solution meaning, that should the required concentration be reached, it could corrode the spiders in front loading washing machines. A great many front-loading washing machines have suffered failed spiders due to corrosion. For examples, including one of yours, just visit '****************.com/wp/2009/10/28'I believe that at the end of the last spin of a washing cycle, no matter what the spin speed, a very small quantity of water will remain on the spider near the shaft, this situation I further believe will be aggravated by recesses in the spider in this area, as in your spider on the above website. This 'water' will contain very small quantities of the laundry aids used, soil, products of the reactions between the laundry aids and soil from the laundry, and chemicals from the 'tap water'. As the water evaporates from this mixture the concentration of the impurities will increase until such time as the pH level reaches a value at which corrosion will commence. Should the pH level not rise sufficiently to cause corrosion the 'impurities' in the 'water' will leave a deposit, which will cause mould and foul odours which is also a common complaint with this type of washer.I would appreciate your comments on the above. Thank you and regards Product : Washers Modelno : Front Loaders Serialno : Future emails from Whirlpool : No
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