|
|
The Kenmore 417.29042992 Washer was made by Kelvinator, owned by Electrolux and marketed under the Frigidaire brand name in the US in their Gallery series as the Frigidaire FWT445GC. It was also manufactured for other brand names. You can find the service manuals here: Kenmore 417.29042992 Tumble Action Washer Service Manual, aka Frigidaire FWT445GC Front Load Washer Service ManualI know this follow-up may be dated, but for anyone owning this machine and wanting to repair it, this information should prove useful. I've been looking for a service manual (aka repair manual) for quite awhile for this particular machine, which I continue to use and repair as necessary. I'd found some similar, but nothing that matched it totally. This one seems to match spot on. Enjoy!
|
|
|
GLad you found it. I deleted my suggestion, which I typed before reading your last post.
|
|
|
Well, that is a great post!
I think I speak for everyone when we say we admire your persistance in tracking down the problem and we are equally glad you got your payoff in the end, ie a fix that did not cost anything (which is as it should be given your time and effort)
I believe the problem you ran into with trying to get help was (1) the fact that these motor are rarely the problem and (2) no one really tests or repairs these things, they just replace them which is the cost effective way to do things given the cost of labor and the liklihood that a repair is not possible (although the person who thought he could not get the motor because it was Kenmore is someone who should not be in the business)
Thanks for the update and the pictures. Good luck going forward.
|
|
|
Hello again. SUCCESS!!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry for the long post, but I just HAD to tell someone. I hope its a good read for the stubborn, pigheaded, DIY diehards out there like myself...
Oh boy, what a story. Thanks Erik, for your tips on the connectors. I hadn't checked every one and when I did, I saw a few that were bent. Hoping for a miracle I tightened them and tried again, but no go. Since it wasnt the speed control board, I went back to the diagrams to trace EVERY pin from the timer to the speed board to the motor. Everything had power like it should and the motors resistance checks were all fine again too.
So now what? I 'broke down' and called a few repair guys. One never called back, another just kept saying that you cant test/fix motors. The 3rd was helpful when I told him everything I had done. He did say that even though the motor windings check out OK, it can still be broken. He thought it might be the internal tachometer. Funny though - neither of them even suggested to come out to fix it.
If it was the motor, I wanted to verify it was bad before spending the $. I went to an electric motor repair shop. This guy took one look at an appliance motor and said "no we cant do anything, cant test it, cant fix it, cant clean it." I asked what I could check or verify - could I clean the brushes and could that cause the problem of no fast spin. He said "those motors dont even have brushes." He suggested an appliance parts store. I called them - can they test it or what might be the problem. He said "no, we cant test it, have no idea, and we cant even get that motor since its Kenmore - gotta call Sears". Uh, its made by Frigidaire and has Frigidaire part numbers... {sigh}
Out of options, I figure I better just buy a motor and hope. But, being too damn curious, I just HAD to take it apart first and see what I could find. I figured there would be a small circuit board inside and then of course, there's no way to tell if it went bad somehow. I take it apart last night and it looks fine. I take out the white 'plate' (see pic) and see that there is NO circuit board. So damnit - it HAS to be a mechanical problem! I check all the 'wires' and connections. One brush (ha brushless???) was considerably shorter than the other, but otherwise it looked fine. I cleaned the commutator to a shine and was getting ready to put it back together not really finding anything wrong. I doubt the windings and metal plates go 'bad'.
However, there was these two pieces - each a half circle magnet that wrapped around the armature at the end of the shaft, between the commutator and the bearing (see pic). It looked like they sat on a plastic shelf making a circle around the shaft. I didnt know if they were supposed to spin or be stationary, but when I took a close look I saw a mostly sheared off plastic 'tab' on the shaft (see pic)! I then noticed that the two pieces werent perfect semi-circles, then were meant to be a circle - it had broken in two right where there was in indent for the tabs! Since it had a tab that was supposed to lock it in place (ie it spun with the shaft), the fact that it was broken and the tab sheared off meant it had STOPPED spinning when it broke. AND this lined up with where the TACHOMETER winding was deep in the housing by the bearings!
Its sad that I was so excited by this, but WOW! This magnet must sends signals to the tachometer winding to report the speed. I suppose during slow spin (tumble) the speed board doesnt care about the tachometer reading, but any water-extracting spin had to report the correct speed. So, without this magnet turning, the speed board knew something was wrong and shut down the motor just as it was starting! HA - it WAS a mechanical failure.
Doubting I could ever get this part (probably $5 vs a $160 motor), I figure super glue is worth a try. I glue the pieces together and to the plastic 'holder' on the shaft. Let it set, put it all together, put motor in washer and DAMN, my airplane is flying again!! The motor had a little scraping sound, but I think thats the brushes 'seating' themselves to their new position on the communtator. However long this lasts will be fine and if it fails, I know exactly what to do or buy.
What caused it to break - it must have been from the violent jumping the machine did - which must have been simply an out-of-balance load. I never had that in 10 yrs of doing laundry so was unprepared for what it was like. That motor must be incredably strong as that machine weighs a ton with all that concrete! I was amazed when I saw it lift off the floor.
So what did I learn through this?
1) Memorize the wiring diagram and figure EVERYTHING out - checking EVERY circuit/voltage.
2) Professionals (parts stores, repair shops, repairmen), except one, are a$$holes when it comes to dealing with DIYers.
3) You will be tempted to kill yourself before you figure it out.
And of course 4) ALWAYS have a full load with no balled up sheets!
CNR
|
|
|
Well, thanks for sharing that with us. We try to tell everyone with a problem like this to check the wiring and the connections but sometimes we forget because such action is second nature for us, so your post is very helpful!
|
|
|
My first post with I hope some help for a few of the many owners of these Kenmore / Frigidaire machines that fail. We bought ours from Sears in November of 1999. It has the same troubleshooting guides, the 9 pin / 4 pin connectors, etc.
Our final spin just stopped one day - no preceding event that we were aware of. From troubleshooting, I thought it was the motor (high resistance across the brushes) but replacing it did not fix the problem. I believe the motor would have been needed soon anyway as the resistance across the brushes varied significantly on the old one and even when it worked, it sparked.
Once I began troubleshooting, the problem got worse - the motor often didn't even turn during the tumble cycles. (I removed it from the machine, plugged it back in and let it cycle while out of the machine. I used masking tape around the shaft with black stripes to be able to easily see it turn.)
After quite a few trips to the laundromat while I attempted to figure out what could be wrong, we were on the verge of buying a new machine and letting whoever delivered it haul away this one. It was completely baffling to me because occasionally the motor would turn during some of the steps and other times it would not turn at all.
Then I stumbled on the problem: Checking voltage at pin 4 of the 9 pin plug (9.4) during final spin, I had 120V but the motor would not spin. Then I checked the voltage on the board by attaching a clip to the end of the resistor that pin 4 was soldered to. I had 0V there. The reason: the contact on the edge connector was loose and often not passing the voltage to the circuit board. In testing the various pins, I had made it worse by bending the spring contacts on pins 2 through 6 (see photo - pin 1 is on the right). I cleaned the contacts on the board. I then worked my pocket knife along the edge of each tab in the connector and carefully twisted to raise the spring portion. Plugged it back in and used duct tape to help secure it. Ran it through a full cycle and HALLELUJAH - we are back in operation!
Over time, I suspect it is possible that one or more of the contacts will loosen again from the vibration. But this time I'll know where to look.
This may or may not help CNR but I hope it will solve the problem for a few other folks and prevent trashing a repairable machine.
All the best and good luck!
Erik
P.S. In the course of trying to figure out how everything interacted, I built a spreadsheet to help me to see what is happening during each of the timer steps. I could manually advance the timer and observe / measure voltages. I have scanned and attached it. Provided as-is - no warranties - check for errors before believing it!
|
|
|
fdsafdsafdsafdsfdsafdafdsHi all,
OK, does anyone have a sledge hammer I can borrow?? :mad:
Well the holidays got in the way of my repair, so I ordered a Speed Control board on 12/28. After hearing "its backordered", "its on this truck and we'll send it Monday", "it wasnt on that truck, we dont know when its coming in", I FINALLY got the board yesterday. And, of course, I put it in and I STILL HAVE NO FAST SPIN!
With the laundry piling up I still need some help. Does anyone know what wires I can connect directly to my motor to see it if CAN do a fast spin? I need to prove that the $^$(%&$*() motor actually can do it before trying something else. During the cycle it seems like it TRIES to start the fast spin - it comes on and winds up in speed, and then it shuts down.
If the motor CAN spin fast, then what else could it be? The timer board? I mentioned before my disabling of the wax motor :
- Bent the wax (auxiliary) contacts inside lock assembly to 'fool' the machine into thinking the wax motor works
Does that seem like it should work?
Any other ideas or help would be appreciated.
Thanks,
CNR
|
|
|
Well, you might want to borrow a meter from a friend or neighbor and re check things. Not sure how your meter is registering volts with a one leg connection, induction somehow?
Other than that it sounds like power is getting to the motor control board, which would indicate the board itself is the problem. It is possible your MTP is the cause, but unlikely. I think if your tests with another meter confirm your results you should replace the board.
Glad you got the buzzer fixed, we have cats but have not had the buzzer problem with them (other problems though)
Good luck, hope that works out and let us know. Seems like a lot of folks are following this post.
|
|
|
Well, I ended up having some time last night and did some more checking... I couldnt get much out of the 'Motor Movement" section of this Tech Sheet: http://www.applianceaid.com/pic...rontloadermotorstuff.jpgMy motor DOES tumble, and the directions arent clear (step 3) as to using the disconnected CABLE to do the tests or using the socket on the board? My results : Step 4 - I got 23V which makes no sense. I was also getting AC voltage readings on my meter when only 1 lead was connected and the other lead in the air. How is that possible? Step 5 - 120V Step 6 - 2.4 ohms I double checked the motor windings and everything was perfect : Stator full C8.2 - C8.3 ==> 0.9 ohms Armature C8.5 - C8.5 ==> 1.3 ohms TachoGen C8.6 - C8.7 ==> 14.6 ohms Motor Thermal C2.1 - C2.2 ==> 0.1 ohm Stator tapped C8.1 - C8.3 ==> 0.3 ohm I assume this points to a good motor, although with one question : Would the Motor Thermal Protector be either 100% working or 100% bad? Meaning that since my motor tumbles (and has good ohmage (izzat a word?)) that the MTP cannot be the cause of my No-Fast-Spin problem? This is critical because when it tries to fast-spin it starts and then I hear a click on the speed control board that shuts the motor down, and I'm wondering if something is telling the board to shut the motor down, or the board is just bad and shutting it down on its own? I ran a full 'short wash' cycle (no clothes), and confirmed that there is no S1+S1, S1, S2 or S3 spin. The motor only turns on/off in short bursts for the tumble action. I'd like to run some kind of test just to see the motor run fast for a while. Do you know of a way to 'jump' the motor like that? Heck I'd even put in a fast-spin button that I have to press by hand as this diagnosing is getting tiresome! Thanks again for your help, and Happy Holidays to you... CNR PS - Oh, one good thing that I did is disconnect that OBNOXIOUS end-of-cycle buzzer! That thing is LOUD and scares the cat and my kids! Considering the final spin sounds like an airplane taking off from 3 houses away, its pretty obvious that the wash is done when the plane 'lands', so the buzzer is pretty much redundant and useless.
|
|
|
Ok good. Glad you found the tech notes, and let us know what you find out when you have time to check it out.
Yeah, things are slightly busy. Happy Holiday season to you.
|
